K
Karen123456
Senior Member
Malaysia English
- Aug 5, 2011
- #1
The following is from an English exercise given by my son's teacher.
40%
of lizard species worldwide could be extinct by 2080.Barry Sinerro reached the conclusion by taking current data on Mexican lizards and comparing it against extinction modelling and projected risks worldwide.
Can 'against' be used with 'comparing'? I think should be 'with'. Am I correct?
Thanks.
Q
quillerbee
Senior Member
Germany
Canadian English
- Aug 5, 2011
- #2
Hi Karen, I can't say with authority that against is grammatically wrong, but it is not normally used in scientific writing.
When you are comparing things to see if they are the same or different, such as active drug or placebo, or the lizard situation, use with.
The common mistake is to use to, but that means you are saying one thing is like another, as Shakespeare did:
I compare thee to a summer's day. (You are nice like a summer's day, not let's see if you are hotter and sunnier.)
G
Glenfarclas
Senior Member
Chicago
English (American)
P
Parla
Member Emeritus
New York City
English - US
- Aug 5, 2011
- #4
I would definitely use with; I don't think I've ever seen "compare against". The American Heritage Dictionary, in its Usage Note accompanying the definition of this word, discusses only two prepositions—to ("describing the resemblances between unlike things", as in comparing a woman to a summer day) and with (when examining two things "in order to discern their similarities or differences").
S
sendintheclowns
Senior Member
Birmingham, AL
Norwegian
- Aug 5, 2011
- #5
Karen123456 said:
The following is from an English exercise given by my son's teacher.
40%
of lizard species worldwide could be extinct by 2080.Barry Sinerro reached the conclusion by taking current data on Mexican lizards and comparing it against extinction modelling and projected risks worldwide.
Can 'against' be used with 'comparing'? I think should be 'with'. Am I correct?
Thanks.
I think the usage is "against" here because you are not comparing the data to the modeling itself, but to the results of the modeling (which is the model). If you want to use "with" you would have to say "...comparing it with the results of the modelling..."
This is very common scientific usage, perhaps because you always set out to disprove your hypothesis (in this case, the model) and not to prove it (which you cannot do). You can only test whether your model is consistent with the data, so therefore you compare your model against the data.
PaulQ
Senior Member
UK
English - England
- Aug 5, 2011
- #6
This sounds like a confusion between 'comparing to' and 'as set against'
"He is comparing it to a newer model"
"It is preferable when set against the old model."
The correct version is compare to.
B
Baltic Sea
Banned
Polish
- Aug 5, 2011
- #7
I once heard "to check something against something else". Maybe "to compare something against something else" is derived from "to check something against something else".
Q
quillerbee
Senior Member
Germany
Canadian English
- Aug 5, 2011
- #8
sendintheclowns said:
I think the usage is "against" here because you are not comparing the data to the modeling itself, but to the results of the modeling (which is the model). If you want to use "with" you would have to say "...comparing it with the results of the modelling..."
Well, no, a professional scientist would write, "...applied extinction modelling to current data on Mexican lizards."
You don't compare results with modelling or results of modelling.
sendintheclowns said:
This is very common scientific usage, perhaps because you always set out to disprove your hypothesis (in this case, the model) and not to prove it (which you cannot do). You can only test whether your model is consistent with the data, so therefore you compare your model against the data.
Well, no, it is not common scientific usage (that would be "compared with"), and this is not scientific writing. It is educational writing about science.
And a model is not a hypothesis. A hypothesis is a concept. A model is a tool.
S
sendintheclowns
Senior Member
Birmingham, AL
Norwegian
- Aug 5, 2011
- #9
quillerbee said:
Well, no, a professional scientist would write, "...applied extinction modelling to current data on Mexican lizards."
You don't compare results with modelling or results of modelling.Well, no, it is not common scientific usage (that would be "compared with"), and this is not scientific writing. It is educational writing about science.
And a model is not a hypothesis. A hypothesis is a concept. A model is a tool.
Yes, on second thought I believe you are indeed correct as to the usage. Both "...compared against the modeling" and "...compared to the modelling" would be incorrect, and "compared against" is not a correct phrase.
I agree that a hypothesis is not quite the same as a model.
However, a hypothesis is not a concept, either. It's a statement of a predicted outcome of a particular action, such as an experiment.
A model could be a tool, but does not have to be. It is a description of a system for which (multiple) hypotheses can be formulated that can subsequently be tested.
But I guess that's beside the discussion in this thread...
G
Glenfarclas
Senior Member
Chicago
English (American)
- Aug 5, 2011
- #10
For those who continue to insist that "compare ___ against ___" is incorrect, I would suggest that it is in fact both venerable and quite widely used:
.
"... [A]nd
comparing the sums against the names of those who are rated, they have the highest reason to think that the said rate is assessed in a very negligent, careless, or partial manner . . . ." ("An act to prevent stage plays, and other theatrical entertainments, within this Colony," in Records of the Colony of Rhode Island and Providence Plantations) (1762)
"Exclusive of this glaring error, the paper itself was extremely delusive, since it onlv
compared the actual charges againstthe four quarters of receipt, without taking into consideration . . . ." (Andrew Kippis, The New Annual Register, Or General Repository of History, vol. V) (1785)
"We may in some districts obtain more extracted honey than comb, but after
comparing the price of one against the other, I think we may say that it is most profitable to cultivate the production of comb honey." (The British Bee Journal and Bee-Keeper's Adviser, vol. XII) (1884)
"If found correct, the purchase order is returned to the purchase order file clerk for refiling, and the checker proceeds to
compare the invoice against the receiving blankfor quantities." (William E. Wilson, "Buying and Receiving Goods," in The Magazine of Business, vol. XIII) (1913)
"In
comparing the one against the other neither Mr. Henely nor the Court consider that the one heats and cools its premises with private funds . . . ." ("Quasi-Public v. Public Property," in ABA Journal, vol. 62) (1976)
.
Really, I don't understand people's insistence here in the face of widespread practice in professional literature.
P
Parla
Member Emeritus
New York City
English - US
- Aug 6, 2011
- #11
For those who continue to insist that "compare ___ against ___" is incorrect, I would suggest that it is in fact both venerable and quite widely used.
Really? You offer five examples in support of that: two from the 18th century, one from the 19th century, one from 98 years ago, and one from an opinion piece published in a law journal 35 years ago. These hardly demonstrate contemporary use, I believe.
G
Glenfarclas
Senior Member
Chicago
English (American)
- Aug 6, 2011
- #12
From news in the last three weeks:
.
"Users type their names into an online form, which automatically
compares them against a listof registered voters to reduce errors of the sort that can get a petition thrown out." (Baltimore Sun, "Immigrant advocates file suit to toss tuition referendum") (August 1, 2011)
"This figure, which
compares weight against height, counts as overweight by WHO guidelines." (The Guardian, "Compared with Europeans, British women are more likely to get cancer") (August 1, 2011)
"The city's WTC Health Registry is
comparing diagnoses against databasesin 11 states where the majority of responders live." (New York Daily News, "Doc running WTC program rules out cancer for now, but wisely leaves door open for scientific proof") (July 27, 2011)
"The University of Leeds is leading a worldwide trial,
comparing the robot against standard keyhole techniquesfor removing bowel cancer." (Sky News, "Surgeons test out robot on bowel cancer ops") (July 29, 2011)
"The UCD scientists used DNA barcoding techniques to identify 226 cod products purchased from supermarkets, fishmongers and takeaway outlets across Ireland and the UK and
compared the results against the product labels." (Irish Times, "Mislabeled cheap fish sold as cod") (July 16, 2011)
.
From books in the last decade:
.
"Using IAFIS, a latent print specialist can digitally capture latent print and ten-print images and perform several functions with each including enhancing to improve image quality,
comparing latent fingerprints against suspect ten-print recordsretrieved from the criminal fingerprint repository, searching latent fingerprints against the ten-print fingerprint repository . . . ." (J. Dempsey and L. Forst, An Introduction to Policing) (2009)
"The accuracy of the available procedures for the prediction of relevant quantities . . . can be assessed only by
comparing the predicted values against the measured performance." (Culshaw et al., Engineering Geology for Tomorrow's Cities) (2009)
"This statement
compares the firm's revenues against its expensesto determine its net profit (or loss)." (Zimmerer et al., Modeling the Supply Chain) (2007)
"This can obviously not be measured in any easy way, for instance by
comparing 'achievements' against targets." (Victor N. Webb, Language in South Africa: The Role of Language In National Transformation, Reconstruction and Development) (2002)
.
I hope that helps.
gvergara
Senior Member
Santiago, Chile
Castellano (variedad chilensis)
- Apr 12, 2014
- #13
Whether or not against is correct, is with always correct in the aforementioned sentences? Just to be on the safe side, I mean... Thanks
S
Smauler
Senior Member
Ipswich, Suffolk, England
British English
- Apr 12, 2014
- #14
Yes. "Compare with" is preferable, in my opinion.
E
edamian
New Member
French - France
- May 17, 2014
- #15
"To compare with" is the correct construction in our everyday use but, depending on the context, to "compare against" something is correct as well. See below:
Merriam Webster states, in its definition of "prove": "to test the worth or quality of; specifically: to compare against a standard —sometimes used with up or out."
"To compare against" introduces a process of verification, as in to "check against".
As a matter of fact, under "check", the Oxford Dictionaries write that to ""check something against"is to verify the accuracy of something by comparing it with (something else)." To compare something "against" (instead of "with") probably derives from checking something "against", giving the former construction the same meaning as the latter's.
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